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September 14, 2005

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Iain

Is there not going to come a point very soon when teams just stop pitching to him, à la Barry Bonds, and take their chances with Manny?

I agree, though: true greatness. Amazing.

Alex Belth

I saw a replay of what happened to Kapler, and though I've never been a fan of his, I felt for the guy. That was just a horribly freakish thing to have happen and I hope he's OK. It reminded me of what Jason Kendell broke his foot simply stepping on first base several years ago.

Ortiz is just incredible. Still, I heard something about him being the best "clutch" performer in Red Sox history. (This season aside, I don't even know if he's the best clutch hitter on the team--see Dave Studdemund's article for THT: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/clutch-masters/). Not taking anything away from what he's accomplished, but I don't know that I'd consider him better in a big spot than Yaz was. And, I know this is nitpicking Beth, I don't know that I'd categorize his great year as heroic yet. What Yaz did down the stretch in 67 WAS heroic. Man, didn't they play a double header against the Twins on the last day of the year and he went something stupid like 6-8?

Now, that was incredible. Considering the way he's going, I wouldn't put it past Ortiz to do something similar. But he's got to do it.

beth

aren't you the same man who was arguing that a-rod should be the mvp? we'll see how things work out, but i disagree wholeheartedly with your assessment.

that said, thanks for the comment. flattering to know you and cliff are reading. :-)

alex belth

You disagree with what assessment? That Ortiz is a better clutch hitter than Yaz or that Ortiz should be the MVP? I don't know if Ortiz is a better clutch hitter than Yaz, but I do believe that Rodriguez should be the MVP. Sully has an interesting debate with a commentor about this over at his site (Sully is pro Rodriguez, and the commentor is pro Ortiz). But we can agree to disagree. That's cool.

GoSox

And then there's Jason Giambi.

alex belth

Truthfully what I think will happen is that the Yanks will not make the post-season and the Sox will. I think Ortiz will continue to hit a handful of big dingers, while Rodriguez will not, and that the award will go to Ortiz, whether I think he should get it or not. The voters have never been keen on giving the hardware to a Yankee anyhow. My feeling is that Ortiz will get it.

beth

//The voters have never been keen on giving the hardware to a Yankee anyhow//

so we don't count jeter's gold glove last year?

as far as the MVP goes, though, you're prob. right. i can't remember who the last yankee was that won it, but it was on a trivia question over the weekend during the game. i was surprised--wasn't it don mattingly or someone from similarly long ago?

sarah

you don't think they'll ever retire pedro's number?? maybe not just because?? never?? :( :(

beth

as for the yaz comparison, first thing is i don't think i made it. i quoted the stat that he's the first red sox SINCE yaz to hit more than 40 home runs three years in a row. but where i disagree with your assessment--in addition to the a-rod / ortiz argument--is that ortiz carried us to a world series win and yaz didn't, and that to me is a gigantic difference. david ortiz carried the team in the two biggest games, the two most high-pressure situations, in its history in games 4 and 5 last year. there had never been a situation like that. if we're to compromise, maybe we could say the circumstances surrounding yaz and ortiz are simply not comparable.

you're right that ortiz' year in 2005 hasn't necessarily been a "heroic" year *yet*--but what i'm seeing now is that ortiz isn't just a one-hit (if you'll pardon the phrase) wonder; he didn't just come up big last year. he's kept doing it this whole season, consistently. that's why i think he'll be the next Sox great, up on the wall with the other numbers. that's what i was saying. just my opinion; i'm sure many might disagree at this stage. and i also worry that i've jinxed him by offering it...

Dave Crossman

//The voters have never been keen on giving the hardware to a Yankee anyhow//

I'm not sure Ted Williams would have agreed with you. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I seem to recall him losing to Joe D. a couple of times when you could have made a pretty strong argument for Ted.

deedee

I'm as big of an advocate for Papi as MVP as anyone, but do y'all really think it'll happen?

Will they grant such an honor to a guy who steps up to the plate, knocks one out, and his job is done? Sure, he's the clutch-est guy on the planet...that's his job. That's his ONLY job.

Don't hate me for saying this: As much as the very thought of A-Rod as MVP makes me want to weep and break stuff, it is a concept I can stand behind.

barry

beth, your post actually says ''the first man since Yaz'' to hit >40 for three straight years, not the first red sox. also, i don't think ortiz is black.

beth

ortiz isn't black?

wha...?

i mean...

????

deedee

If Papi is not black, then he he has the best goddamn year-round tan I've ever seen.

In seriousness Barry...Ortiz is not black, as in from Africa. I believe he is from the Domincan Republic (I could be wrong, I didn't check my facts).

beth

he's from the DR. but he's still a black guy. can't someone be both?!?!? to me black is a skin color, not a nationality.

deedee

I would say he is a black guy.

I have this friend from the DR, who insists on not being referred to as a black guy...despite his skin color.

But, you know....what do I know?

beth

hmm. you prob. know more than i do, deedee, but pedro has referred to himself as a "black dominican" in the past and to ortiz as "the black bear".

perhaps "dominican dimaggio" would be better than "black bambino." but i really think of ortiz as the antithesis to the babe. the fact that he's dark-skinned, whatever you want to call him, would have prevented him from playing for the red sox for a long, long time. that was one of the biggest reasons they never won, not the babe ruth thing--because they were too damn racist to let either jackie robinson or willie mays or any other great players they could've had because they weren't white.

to me, ortiz, as a guy--whatever you want to call him--who wouldn't be able to play in boston because of ignorance now being the hero here is poetic justice. it's what i think broke the "curse". and ortiz is a great big jolly guy like the babe was--so there's more of an analogy there too.

that's what i was trying to say.

deedee

I feel you. I do.

I don't know why I am debating this...I'll blame it on working-girl boredom.

Black, or not black. He could be fucking green for all I care. He's my Papi, and I heart him.

barry

yeah, i don't know. i think black refers to a race, of which there are technically only three: black, white, asian. this isn't my opinion, i think it's a taxonomical thing based on anthropological development, things like bone structure. i think ortiz, like all latinos, technically belong to the white race, which is wierd.

Sammy

"Designated Hitters are just half-players!" I hate the DH and always will. Ortiz is the greatest hitter -- not just greatest "clutch"hitter, but greatest HITTER in the game today. I hate the fact that people don't consider DH's real "players." My point is -- the DH sucks! b/c if there was no DH, David Ortiz would play first base and I'm sure he'd do a fine job albeit not a gold glover..so what? But now, people get to take pot shots and say he's just a "half-player"

barry

sorry to say it, but alex rodriguez is a better hitter than david ortiz. this is especially manifest in that his numbers are better than ortiz's BEFORE park adjustments.

beth

oh fuck, the can of worms has officially been opened on this site.

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