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December 22, 2005

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Amy

Shut UP, Shaughnessy.

Iain

In a world of constant change, it's good to know that some things stay the same: Dan Shaugnessy is still a fuckwit.

And if we needed a nice thought to warm our hearts over the holiday season, this one might do the trick:
So now Damon will be handsomely overpaid to deteriorate right before our very eyes in Yankee Stadium. If you liked watching the decline and fall of Bernie Williams, get ready for more, because he's already as bad a thrower as Williams about five years ahead of schedule.

Jen

Somewhere in this entire post there *might* be a word or two that I don't 100% agree with, but probably not.

This does make me really wish Theo were still GM, because I don't think he would have signed Damon either, yet I have a hunch that a lot of this media stuff would read very differently if it were Theo not making the deal instead of B&J not making the deal.

Dexter Bridges

Not to defend Ordway, but he doesn't need to cite sources. He's simply saying that's what he thinks happened. "I think" is an opinion. Know what? I agree with him. And I have no sources.

beth

dexter, i'm not sure how carefully you read this post or how well i succeeded in getting my point across, but my objection was not only the fact that ordway is speculating about what happened in the negotiations with no basis in fact (whether or not he's guessed right is obviously not something we can know for sure, either) but the fact that he and massarotti and shaughnessy are representing boston fans' opinions in the MLB.com piece. i disagree--vehemently--with many of the things they said, i think the idea that the sox got "punked" somehow on this deal is ludicrous, and i resent having these media guys famous for making mountains out of molehills and cashing in on controversy providing the most prominent quotes for the article published by MLB that was supposedly gauging "popular" opinion in boston.

in other words, i know what an opinion is. and you're missing my point.

Joel

You cannot just sign Jeremy Reed because he is not a free agent, so i think the Seattle Mariners do have your beloved Red Sox over a barrell for that option. (good luck with the Coco Crisp trade also)

And Marte cannot play SS because he is a third baseman. Wanna know why guys end up at third? because they have no range to play SS,2B or the outfield. Unless you move to that position so someone like Derek Jeter can remain at SS.

Get your facts straight. other than that it was nice seeing a Red Sox fan cry and rant on the world wide web.

Happy Holidays

beth

good to see, also, that you "classy" yankees fans are still holding yourselves up as shining examples of intelligence and good behavior on the World Wide Web.

as a matter of fact, dickhead, i'm *not* crying about JD being gone. and i'm *not* crying, either, about the fact that the sox have three fucking months to sign three fucking players. which is exactly why i wrote this post to disagree with the mediots (and yankees fans desperate for the chance to gloat) who seem to think i *should* feel that way.

read the post before you tell *me* to get my facts straight.

Boston Fan in Michigan

Two bits that stand out to me (other than, no shit Beth, you know where I stand on this one and it isn't in hysterical panic mode):

1. "teenage girls and fanboy bloggers". Because the girls are all 18 and under (I wonder what he would have thought of the creepy mom fans of Bellhorn) and airheadedly in love with Johnny's flowing locks, and the bloggers are male. Natch. Nitpicking, sure, but eh, that's how I roll.

2. Any sort of article citing WEEI as any sort of source, except to make fun of it, when everyone intelligent I know listens to it as a source of amusement at the hysteria.

mike_b1

Joel wrote "Wanna know why guys end up at third? because they have no range to play SS,2B or the outfield. Unless you move to that position so someone like Derek Jeter can remain at SS."

I always wondered whether, in Jeter's case, SS means "switches sides."

Nick

"Like Pedro, they offered him what they could pay. He was greedier than that, and went elsewhere for more of the folding green. This is the first time this has ever happened in baseball, apparently. It surely is a singular failure on the part of the Sox brass that allowed this unprecedented debacle to take place."

I have to disagree with the notion that the Sox offered what they "could." Sox brass chose to offer an amount $12 million below the Yanks' offer and (if we are to believe Damon)$25 million below another offer. This is not to blame the management team, it's just a clarification: the Sox could have kept Damon. You say "what's 2.5 million a year for a baseball player?" I say "What's $2.5 million a year more for a sports franchise?" In this situation, I can't find fault with either player or management. Just one Yanks fan's opinion.

Beth

k, i think you're nitpicking now, but what i meant was, they offered him what they WANTED to pay him. of course they COULD have scraped together $12 million more. but they didn't want to. i still fail to see why this is a failure on the part of the sox. i don't get why they are supposed to have fucked up here. they made johnny damon a best offer, he wanted more money and so signed with the enemy. really, someone explain to me how the sox "failed" here. they "failed" to overpay him? they "failed" to offer an aging outfielder with a noodle arm a fifth, sixth or seventh year? they "failed" to bow to the demands of scott boras?

maybe i'm thick here, but i don't get it. it's the same with the pedro situation. pedro absolutely did not deserve, in my opinion, the contract with the sox he was demanding. no way would i sign him for as long as the mets did, either, not with that glass shoulder. so the mets went and made what i consider a foolish move--was that a sox "failure" also? personally i think it was smart.

i think the johnny damon thing will turn out to be the same way. unlike the CHB and ordway, here, i lack a crystal ball. but i still maintain that as long as the yankees continue overpaying free agents, they're not going to win out. period. i don't care how good they are--a-rod, after all, is supposed to be the best player since babe ruth, or whatever, right? have they won with him? negatory. or randy johnson. he was gonna put the yankees over the top last year, right? whoops. honestly, i don't buy the idea that johnny damon will be any more effective than those guys for the yankees. i think i'd feel that way even if i were a yankees fan, and many yankees fans do right now.

Nick

well, I didn't say it was a bad move by the sox. I was trying to point out that both sides acted reasonably, in other words, they acted in their own self-interest. You've chosen to put the onus on Damon. But I think it's unreasonable to expect a professional athlete to take a 30% lower offer. Schilling never did it with the Phils or the D-Backs. Call it greed if you will. I just don't know why it's not penny pinching on the part of the franchise.

As a yanks fan, I think the Damon move is positive, and, at least for the next two years, will set up the team as a ridiculously strong offensive club. We'll see.

I think you're half-right about the Yanks policy of overpaying for free agents. For instance, it's undeniable that the A-Rod trade was great for the Yanks. He is one of the two best players in baseball. Baseball Prospectus argues convincingly in Mind Game that had he been traded to the Sox, the team would have won 8 more games that year (this factors in Manny's departure, etc.)Also, the team pays 2/3 of the contract. $16 million is a good price for his services.

And while the Big Unit trade did not work out last year (although he was a dominant pitcher in the 2nd half), I thought it was a worthwhile risk. Afterall, the Big Unit is a freak of nature, one of the two best pitchers of the last 10 years.

The problem comes in the details for the Yanks. What's helped the Sox in relation to the Yanks the last couple of years is their ability to fill the roster with quality players who play small roles. A team with the Yanks resources should not have Womack, Crosby and Sierra as the three best players off the bench. That team also shouldn't have Flaherty as a back-up catcher (that's a dig by the way). Indeed, big signings play a part in this problem as they divert money away from developing a good bench and they force the team to lose high draft picks every year, these picks being players who could fill key roles (such as Hansen will with the Sox this year).

Beth

dig is seconded re flaherty. i am NOT HAPPY about that signing.

yeah, i put the onus on damon, because i am a red sox fan, and a key player on our championship team just sold his soul to the MFY. that tends to make a sox fan angry. and it was damon's decision, so i put the onus on him.

whether or not schilling did a similar thing, whatever, doesn't make me okay with the fact that johnny damon decided to play for the yankees. i'm not going to be HAPPY about it.

what i don't like or understand is all the "the red sox fucked up" stuff. so, yeah, i don't put the onus on them. maybe that's my own myopia as a fan of the team over players, but there you have it.

i think we can generally agree on the yankees FA issue, because whatever its actual result--an overpaid clump of all-stars with no actual sense of team or an inattention to the small details as you mention--it's not helping them, and the damon signing is more of the same.

that was a dig, btw. :-)

Nick

damn, you're a fast typer!

Beth

yep :-)

Boston Fan in Michigan

Sometimes we just email her over and over, to see her rapidfire typing. Then we all laugh and make a Yankee joke. :P

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