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July 16, 2008

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julia

Papel-scion. Papel-spawn. Papel-spring. I can't decide!

We can still have a Papel-farm though.

beth

totally. this is only the beginning!

i have also heard papel-fetus.

Jeff Egnaczyk

"But he's not even the AL saves leader this year--being given the top closer spot was more of a concession to his past performances than a statement about where he is this particular season."

Saves are an incredibly stupid statistic. Mariano Rivera has better numbers than Papelbon (who has better numbers than Rodriguez). Rivera has a .63 WHIP and he's walked 4 people all year with similar HR, SO and IP numbers to Papelbon.

Whoever said anything to Papelbon's wife is a complete moron. The "over-rated" chant is hilarious though. Nobody actually cares about the All-Star game even if it does mean home field advantage.

Sammy

I agree with 99% of what you're saying, Beth. However, the Tito quip - "I learned 2 things...and I suck" - sums it up. It's not what people say or do to you, it's how u handle it. Tito showed himself to be a self confident mature man and Pap, while having a right to be upset, etc. especially have concerns about his wife, has to develop a little thicker skin, which will come with the maturity age/life brings. But a great read as usual, keep it up!

beth

jeff, i think the players who are selected care very much about the all-star game and what kind of experience they have while they're there. i'm sure no player expects to be ridiculed and harrassed the way papelbon was when he's supposed to be there to be honored.

i figured someone was going to call me out on the statistics front. :) really, though, i think the whole initial question to paps was stupid to begin with and honestly don't care much either way who pitched when. i didn't even want to open this can of worms till that chant started, and i *still* am not trying to start arguments about which pitcher is better (even if still i did so inadvertently), because it's too early in paps' career for there to even be any good discussion.

sammy, you raise a good point about mental toughness--i did have that thought myself, 'why is he letting them get to him? closers aren't supposed to give a fuck.'--but regardless of papelbon's reaction to it, *no* player deserves the kind of treatment papelbon got last night at an all-star game, period. after all, if nobody cares about it as jeff said, why get so worked up over papelbon and whether or not he said something about his role in the game?

and yes, i'd have felt the same way if i'd seen red sox fans do the same things to a yankee in the all-star game. (if they did in '99, i disapprove, but i wasn't watching then.) regular-season game? all's fair in rivalry. but this was just crude and unnecessary.

maxwell horse

I don't know if Drew was kidding or not about pitching. But if they had actually let him do it, that would've been the best thing on TV ever.

tom yf

I fucking hate Papelbon. And I don't hate a lot of players, or even very many Red Sox players. But I was disgusted and ashamed at the way he was treated last night. It just reflects so poorly on the city and the team and the fans and the stadium (the latter two of which I could generally do without, All Star Game or otherwise).

To be fair though, I don't feel like very many Yankees fans still cling to that "classiest team with the classiest fans" meme anymore. I could be wrong about that, but that's the sense I have. I think we can all agree that any sports fan base, and probably any group of people large enough to exceed a critical mass of accountability, is perfectly capable of behaving like savages.

beth

you have a point, there, tom, i may be addressing ghosts with the 'classiness' thing, memories of flame wars past rather than anything i've heard recently.

your comment proves the position i always took: there are both savages and civilized people on both sides.

i used to be continually amazed at how hard it was to convince either side of that, though it seems obvious. i hope that's changing.

BB

long time, first time. yankees fan (i read your blog because i like it, and because i need to keep track of your tribe...).

on one level, i think papelbon was treated poorly. i hope it's obvious that most yankees fans (or at least most actual yankees fans, and not those random people that went to the parade just to get out of work for a day) wouldn't do that. but also, he did sort of bring it on himself. whether he clarified/corrected his original quotes or not, the fact remains that he said those original quotes. dustin, drew, tito, tek, they knew enough to not say things that they would later have to go back and correct. it's also not the first time jon's been obnoxious to other teams/fanbases. a little bit of karma coming back around, maybe.

also, the only person that's saying pap's wife was threatened is papelbon himself. i'm not quite sure i believe him in the first place. obviously, whatever happened at the parade wasn't serious enough to draw anybody else's attention besides papelbon's. nobody else backs his story up, no cops were called, nothing. i think it's safest to couch that into the "obnoxious dude who drank too much and started yelling" category and let it rest.

also, the overrated thing - overall, i'm the first to say that papelbon is one of baseball's best closers. duh. but, let's face it: he's not having as good a year as usual, and, he blew the hold at the all-star game. base hit, steal, sac fly. it's his job to not let runners get home, and he didn't do it. bad throw from navarro or not, that's part of the game and papelbon should have been able to deal with it. would we blame tek if he chucked the ball into the outfield and sherrill was on the mound? somehow, i doubt it.

finally (FINALLY) baseball - clearly, mo deserved to close. history/his field/etc., but also strategically. number of saves/save chances (k-rod) are like rbi - something that has more to do with the circumstances surrounding the player than the player's actual ability. era is a much better indicator of how a player does individually - i equate it to batting average. mo's the best in terms of individual performance this year, and he deserved it.

thanks guys!

Sam

Tito's quote gives me joy in my heart-bits.

And I think Cardinals fans are the only ones still clinging to the 'classiest fans in baseball' title.

haq90210

Please don't start with "classiest" because bosux fans can get pretty nasty too. Your comments about the level of class of those yankee fans at the asg are way off base and contradictory. Bosux fans repeatedly chant "yankees suck" when the yanks are in boston, and a few years ago they mockingly chanted against Rivera when he was in a save situation against the team. Not to mention, the red sux fans who frequent yankee fan blog sites, and just sign up to torment yankee fans. That is classless. 2nd thing is, this is baseball....there is no crying in baseball and to say that papelbust shouldn't have been taunted because he was playing on "our" side is ridiculous. He was representing the RED SUX, not the yankees, and he said HE deserved to close the all star game IN yankee stadium instead of an all-time great, and arguably the greatest closer of all-time (who by the way had a better era, similar strikeouts, less walks (7 paplebust- 4 rivera) and is perfect in save opportunities, compared to papelbust's 3-4 blown saves). Papelbum is also classless because Mo rivera took the time out to teach HIM his famed cutter.....seeing as his team IS a sworn enemy of the yanks, and didn't have to take someone, much less a red sux player, under his wing and show him what got him to be so successful in the steriod era. If papelbum can't take the heat, he's not fit to be a closer, bottom line. Lastly, the all star game WILL always have a team/player who will be booed because quite frankly, either you're liked or disliked, AND, they are playing the game either in a national league stadium, or an american league stadium. It wasn't good enough that the red sux had like 10 players in the all-star game AT yankee stadium, compared to 3 for the yankees, but then he has the NERVE to announce himself king? He can't hold Mo's jockstrap. He got what he deserved, and to make it even better, he gave up a run in his inning, while Mo posted 1 1/3 scoreless innings. Ask any major league player this question and see who they'd choose....Mo rivera in his prime closing out a important game, or papelbitch, and see what the results will be.

beth

you know, i would respond, haq, but my eyes glazed over about halfway through both of your rants. i hope they made *you* feel better, at least.

haq90210

And to think they Yankees are classless, they were the ones who stood on opening day 2005, after the sox FINALLY got over the curse, and cheered/saluted/congratulated them on OUR turf while the sux were getting their rings. We give credit where credit is due, and I was kinda happy the sux finally one a title after 86 long choking years, but then that's when the red sux fans came out of the woodwork as if they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Now, 2 titles later, they think they invented this thing called baseball, but last I checked, the yankees have 26 world titles, to the red sux' 3. You hate us because you tried so hard to be us, and also to beat us, now you have your moment in the sun, but instead of enjoying your tan, you're getting burned again. I hate the red sux for their arrogance, but I respect them for what they've accomplished. As for beth, and anyone who was utterly digusted by my uncalled for comment, I apologize....but I don't apologize for loathing your stupid red sux nation. You reading only half of my previous comment(s) only show me that it started to hit home for you, and the truth hurts. Nobody can question my response on the classy thing/Mo rivera situation because I stated the facts. I seriously doubt papelbum can be as dominate in his late 30's as rivera has, and even if he does, it won't compare anyway, because he would have done so post-steroid era, when Rivera did it with class DURING the peak years of the steroid era. Rivera is as classy as they come in mlb, and papelbum should be ashamed of himself to try to insult his mentor, and the standard for great closers of our generation.

beth

no, reading only half of your voluminous drivel shows more about your verbal skills than anything about the truth hurting, thanks. none of what you've said here is anything i haven't heard expressed (though normally much more articulately and civilly) by other yankees fans, and honestly, i don't have the energy right now to get into debates with you that i've had 1000 times before. i've stated my opinion in this post, you've stated yours in quite colorful language in response, and that's really as far as i think it should go.

if you want a dialogue with people, it helps not to use tired, derogatory and unoriginal names for their team as if you made them up, for starters.

if you don't, well...you're not getting one. and you've said your piece. either find a civil tone in which to broach a discussion or find another site where someone will take your bait.

haq90210

First off, I apologized for my derogatory statement. Secondly, I read all of the comments posted on this blogger, and I've found similar hateful statements about the yankees, and the "red sox". A blog is a place to voice your opinions, and that's what everyone is doing; as far as it going into verbal assaults, I've never once verbally assaulted any of the bloggers here. I only verbally assaulted the "red sox". I have no beef with you beth, actually I have respect for you. You are one of the RARE bosox fans who have articulate things to say, and I have yet to read anything hurtful said from you about my favorite team, so I'll let it be, and will tone down my comments to a level of respectability as long as it is likewise done in respect to my team from other posters to this blog. Nice to know not all bosox fans are a-holes, lol. Thank you.

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